CAGED question

[N-lightMike]

Ok, so this can be hard to “see” before you have “all” the knowledge. So the question is, do you know all 5 shapes of the C major/A minor scale up and down the neck? If not, then you just have to accept what you are told and tell your mind to shut up when it wants to ask a question. Sorry, but that’s part of the problem with the way music is taught. I’ve been making videos on YouTube attempting to fill in the blanks as I go along, but it’s not easy.

So, let’s start with the “C” shape scale. Why is it a “C” shape? The key of C uses only natural notes, so the open position scale would be as follows:

Key: 1st number is the string: O is Open, other numbers are frets.
1: O, 1, 3
2: O, 1, 3
3: O, 2
4: O, 2, 3
5: O, 2, 3
6: O, 1, 3

Now the open C chord is 5: 3; 4: 2; 3: O; 2: 1; 1: O

Move that shape down 2 frets and you have a D major chord. Using those notes as your anchor points, play the same scale and you will magically have the D major scale with an F# and a C#.

1: 2, 3, 5
2: 2, 3, 5
3: 2, 4
4: 2, 4, 5
5: 2, 4, 5
6: 2, 3, 5

Now the closed D chord is 5: 5; 4: 4; 3: 2; 2: 3; 1: 2

However, if you map out the G chord you have 6: 3; 5: 2; 4: O; 3: O; 2: O; 1: 3 (Yes, you can make 2: 3, but I play the 3 finger G chord. It doesn’t matter, either shape will work.)

Now, if you move that shape down 2 frets and use those notes as your anchor points, you will not end up with the G major scale, having just and F#, but you will end up with the D major chord having 2 sharps, F# and C#. And the chord will be the A major chord, the 5 chord of the key of D, just like G is the 5 chord of the key of C.

Now, move up to the 8th fret of the 6th string and make an open G major chord shape (again, it doesn’t matter which version of the open G you use).

6: 8; 5: 7; 4: 5; 3: 5; 2: 5; 1: 8 What are these notes? What chord do you have?

C, E, G, C, E, C This is a C major chord. Now, what shape follows this chord? Look at the key of G following the open G chord. This is going to have a note that is one fret behind Open, so we might move down to the 12th fret so we can “see” this more clearly.

The G chord is: 6: 15; 5: 14; 4: 12; 3: 12; 2: 12; 1: 15

The scale of the key of G is:
1: 12, 14, 15
2: 12, 13, 15
3: 11, 12, 14
4: 12, 14
5: 12, 14, 15
6: 12, 14, 15

The scale of the key of C follows this pattern but is 7 frets toward the headstock. (This is a perfect 5th. G is the 5th of C, which means if you go UP from C you will go up 7 half steps, or 7 frets. Or, you say that C it the perfect 4th of G, which means if you go UP from G to C you have 5 half steps, or 5 frets. So to go DOWN, you must use the compliment, the perfect 5th which is 7 frets.) So, the scale is:
1: 5, 7, 8
2: 5, 6, 8
3: 4, 5, 7
4: 5, 7
5: 5, 7, 8
6: 5, 7, 8

You won’t be able to understand just by reading this and “thinking” about it. Now, I have drawn up charts showing this. If I shared a chart with you, then you could “see” this. However, you wouldn’t “understand” it like you will if you pick up your guitar and actually fret these scales and chords. The other thing you can do is make your own charts. Then you will “see” it.

Well, I guess I can’t help myself. Here is the diagram showing the C major chord in the CAGED chord shapes within the associated scale pattern. One file is a pdf and the other is jpg. I have never seen any other attempts to show these as they all over lap. But if you look at this chart carefully, you will be able to “see” the CAGED chords and the scale patterns.

I hope this helps.

MG 😀

CAGED-Chord-Scales.pdf 139 KB PDF - Click to view

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CAGED-Chord-Scales.jpg 174 KB Image File - Click to view

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[N-lightMike]

hey Mark @the-old-coach ;

As I was trying to read my comment above, I realized that it is more natural to see the order of the strings the other way like this:

1: O, 1, 3
2: O, 1, 3
3: O, 2
4: O, 2, 3
5: O, 2, 3
6: O, 1, 3

I’m really sorry. My big long comment that I spent so much time on is almost useless as even I get confused trying to read it. I’ll try to edit it.

I’m kinda surprised, but I successfully edited the above comment without losing it.

MG 😀

[N-lightMike]

Ok, Mark, @the-old-coach ;

I re-read your comment trying to figure out what it is you are not understanding. You say the notes are the same? Or, you can play either with either. I’m assuming you are saying you can play either chord with either scale shape?

Ok, let’s compare C major and A major. The C major is C, E, G. The A major is A, C#, E. So you can not play the A major chord using a C major scale, you don’t have the C#.

If you take the C note on the 3rd fret of the A string, or 5th string, and move it down 9 frets to the 12th fret. Now, if you play the same scale pattern that surrounds that C note on the 3rd fret, you will have an A major scale with an F#, C#, G#. And the A major chord will be the same shape as the C major open chord.

So no matter where you move the note your ring finger is holding when playing a C major open chord, you will have a major chord with that note as it’s root. And if you play the scale that is the same relative to that note position, you will have the correct scale for that root note.

I’ve tried to understand your confusion and I’ve tried to answer. I’ve spent a lot of time. If I still haven’t gotten it, you’ll have to refine your question.

MG 😀

[Kitman]

Hey @the-old-coach . @N-lightMike has provided some fabulous in depth info here!

When I read your question this was my thought: the different chord shapes (C,A, G, E, D) allow us to play the notes needed for a chord on different parts of the guitar neck. These “chord shapes” help use access the right notes on the strings at a particular position on the neck.

Not sure if this is exactly correct, however it is how I understood the CAGED portion of FW. 😃

[Kitman]

Meant to add: and the CAGED shape denigration helps us know how to fret the guitar vs what chord we are playing.

The key to linking these two things together is contained in @N-lightMike ’s notes above!

[the-old-coach]

Thanks for all the work, Mike—– and thanks also K-man as well.

Let me digest this info for a day or so and see if I can figure out where I’ve gone wrong here. (That will also give me time to get all the way thru the “CAGED” week).

Using the info and hints you’ve shared, I think I might have noticed a possible wrong turn.

Let me have at it for a day or so. Good chance I’ll learn something as I study this further.

Above all—- thanks for smiling(?) when you’re thinking- “What is that meat-head talking about now?…….”.

theoldcoach

[N-lightMike]

Meat head? That made me laugh, Mark @the-old-coach

No, I don’t think you are a meat head. But I do think of myself in those terms all too often, so I get it. (I am trying really hard to stop. If I wouldn’t think of you that way, why would I think of myself that way?)

MG 😀

[the-old-coach]

Well……….

I have not much to say……..except…….. after relatively little time really studying scale patterns, I found out what I did wrong. UGH.😔

I REALLY appreciate all the work you’ve put into this Mike- and I’ll continue to study the jpg, but right now I’ve got a butt-load of egg to wash off my face.😳

Anyway to just throw out a big “never mind”?????

Goin’ back under my rock now.

theoldcoach

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by  the-old-coach.

[N-lightMike]

I have been told many times in my 3 plus years here at TAC to lighten up on myself. Really, Mark @the-old-coach , this stuff isn’t rocket science, but on the other hand, there are a bunch of confusing things that make no sense at first. Just be patient. You’re getting it. You’re putting in the effort. That’s what it takes. You are doing the deal.

MG 😀

[the-old-coach]

Well, I guess it’s better to ask something “wrong”…… than to never ask it in the first place.

Way back when, when I was training young power-line apprentices, I used to say “I’d much rather have an “ape” who does something wrong than one who is afraid to do anything- for fear of doing it wrong”.

Thank you- (all) for your patience. I’ll get there.

theoldcoach

[N-lightMike]

👍😊

[Cadgirl]

Hey there @the-old-coach ,I just wanted to touch base to see how you were coming along with the CAGED chords and scales. This is something I did for myself so i could work on the different scales per chord at a glance. I just started doing the CAGED section myself and I was getting a little confused on it. Looks like each chord has it’s own scale pattern. Having a visual always helps me out.

CAGED.pdf 438 KB PDF - Click to view

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[HowardM]

Thanks, Catgirl, I found this very useful.

[Cadgirl]

Thanks, I did too.

[the-old-coach]

Cadgirl–

Thanks for checking up!

THOSE VERY CHORD DIAGRAMS that you sent- (from the start-page of each day’s lesson)- were the key to me figuring it out.

My original post (ugh) on this was more about playing those scales a little differently from what was shown, than anything else. Then I came across Tony saying, “I want you to play these scales EXACTLY as they are shown”. (Hint/spoiler– I found out “later”– why. If you’re not “there” yet, you’ll see why, when you get there😉– they all “tie- together”).

I wasn’t “there” yet at that point………

The most confusing part about this whole CAGED system was- (still IS to some degree)- remembering the right STRING to use for the root-note for each chord-shape- (A string for A & C shapes, lowE string for E & G shapes, and D string for D shape).

Also, remembering that the ROOT-note you’re lookin’ for– may– (or may NOT be)– your “barre’d” fret. The root-note IS at your barre’d fret on the A, D, and E shapes, but is NOT on the C and G shapes.

The “chord shapes” themselves are the same as if they were open chords,

On A, D, & E shapes I just find the right string, find the root-note on that string, barre the root note FIRST & then go from there towards the guitar putting the fingers “where they go”.

On the C & G shape, however, I find the string and root-note FIRST, and then go “backwards”- (toward the headstock) to place the BARRE in the right spot– according to the normal chord-shape.

I am still pretty slow at this- but that’s just muscle memory. Over time, that’ll come around.

To me, the key is having it squared-away IN YOUR MIND.

Hope I haven’t buried you in confusion, and am sorry if I’m sharing stuff you already know😀…….

Again– thanks for checking- (I could very likely be “out it the weeds” as Tony says)

theoldcoach

theoldcoach

[Cadgirl]

I just went through the CAGE system myself and it hit me what your question was about. I just wanted to be sure you were were on top of things. It gets very frustrating when you start spinning your wheels. Believe me, I have been lost in the dark myself. I think when I’m done with the Fretboard Wizard, i’ll turn around and do it again. It can’t hurt.

[the-old-coach]

Thank you again for replying!

I just finished-up day before yesterday!!!- (tue). What a great feeling- even though I’m humbled by it enough to know there is soooooo MUCH more to do and learn.

Also– to me, anyway– just because I covered something, does not mean I have learned it.

Sometimes Tony says things like- “It’s not difficult because you already know it”, or, “You learned that in the last chapter, so now we can move onto this chapter”.

Again– for me, anyway– covering something- (or learning a little bit about something)- is a far cry from learning it. Guess that’s why he recommends going back thru it again and again.

I’m with ya’– I’m gonna turn right back around and go thru it again.

Also, I find I do “better” if I have a planned-out curriculum in front of me- and then go “play” after I’ve met some sort-of “daily requirement”- a la (new) FBW. Gives me direction. Otherwise, I “wander” too much. (But….. some wandering is damn fun, right?)

PS- I’ve been taking the original version of FBW at the same time- will likely finish it maybe tomorrow. They have similarities, but also some differences.

To anybody out there reading this— My overall “take” on the Fretboard Wizard course?— Nothing short of FANTASTIC. Soooo well thought out and put together. A no monkeyin’ around, no BS, “get-with-it” course. Full of information and learning.

CG- thanks again……… Always great to hear from you.

In the words of Chris Stapleton– “Starting Over”…….

theoldcoach

[N-lightMike]

Hey @the-old-coach ;

Sounds to me like you have learned this stuff fine. You just explained it above. It’s really as simple as knowing what string the root is on.

What you need now is to internalize it. Make those pathways in the brain well worn with use and practice.

In guitar, it’s actually important to see the difference between learning and practicing. Learn slowly and accurately. Practice frequently and push the speed.

MG 😀

[the-old-coach]

Mike-

Thanks for replying– your advice is ALWAYS right on the money.

That’s about right where I’m at- I’ve got to work to “permanent-ize” these concepts and chord-shapes into my brain.

Right now I have to individually “think them thru” as I play the different chords– in the different chord shapes. I’ve got fair transition speed on some- but most are still quite slow.

BUT…….. I “have it” in my brain🤨….. I’m hoping speed and accuracy will come with repetition, but I realize this will likely be a s-l-o-w process.

Again- as always- thanks for sharing.

Mark

[jumpinjeff]

Hi @the-old-coach , Great thread here. I have enjoyed reading as it has developed. I will add one thing. For this kind of stuff…abandoning the notion of elapsed time, going headlong into the process, sped up my learning. It won’t happen for you slowly or quickly, it will take repetition as you have already observed, the love and fascination of the process will fuel your determination, provide satisfaction, and it will all come together at exactly the perfect time. The only useful measure of elapsed time comes in hindsight analysis.

[N-lightMike]

Hey @the-old-coach ;

First of all, you are totally welcome. It is a real pleasure to be able to give back to others in some small way. I have been given so much.

One of my biggest contributors is @jumpinjeff . Sometimes I have to really think about what he just said before I get it. I read your comment and his comment twice before the significance of what he said hit me.

He said to abandon the idea of “elapsed time”. So, you said it was going to be a “s-l-o-w” process. Ok, that’s not what our guitar journey is about. It is about exploration, and while we are exploring, we are having fun. While you are truly engaged, you don’t think of time. That only distracts us.

Thanks, for the gagillionth time, jumpin jeff. Like Mark, I tend to think instead of enjoy. I will work hard to engage my “pleasure centers” whenever I have my guitar in hand. (I just heard some old guy say that in a video last night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BpUOCfAVB0 One of those “lessons” that isn’t much about guitar technique and more about inner feelings and intent.)

MG 😀