Singing when Melody and Rhythm differ, any advice

[Carol-3M-Stillhand]

@speckpgh one thing I have found to be very helpful is to write out the guitar part/rhythm on a piece of paper/TAB, and make sure to write the rhythm count above the TAB/music line. Then write down the lyrics below the music line, making sure each word/partial word (syllable) matches up with the beat where you would be singing it. This makes it much easier to match up the vocals/words with what you are playing on guitar. Hope all this made some sense? And hope it helps too. Best wishes and can’t wait to hear you play this song!! C

[speckpgh]

Carol, thank you for the feedback. This is the problem, the quick 16th strums and the accents don’t fall on any of the words/syllables so there is a distinct disconnect. I’ll try writing it all out per your advice, and see if there is some overlap that I’m just not seeing, but on the surface, I don’t see it, which I think is why my brain is sort of short circuiting on this, it doesn’t have something to relate to the two things and it wants them to be together and when they are it just gives up on one or the other.

The strumming pattern on the D, written in 16ths would be D-DUD-U—U—U- With the last two UPS being a DSus4 and a DSus2

So there isn’t a vocal/melody change happening in time with these changes.

I can play the song fine, if I don’t try to play this strumming pattern and Sus’s on the D as I am singing, and just keep the strumming pattern something more mundane. I know I’ll get it, I am seeing improvement.

[Loraine]

@speckpgh Funny, I just had a conversation with someone this week about the correct strumming going out the window when vocals are added. Turns out that’s quite common, even for advanced players. Just has something to do worth muscle memory, and the fact our brains can’t consciously pay attention to two converging thought processes. Something has to be on muscle memory while conscious thought deals with the other. Most of the time, guitarists simply revert to something that “sounds good.” Whether right or not, have you noticed all the different interpretations of strum and pick patterns between players that are playing the same exact song. It’s all in our own interpretation of a song.

As for the Dsus’, those will become more natural as you play and sing. Spend a little more time on those areas than the ones you already do well. Soon they’ll become muscle memory too.

[speckpgh]

Loraine,

Thank you for the feedback. I understand the need for the pattern to be in the muscle memory to be able to keep the strum and sing….. Learned that lesson way back when I first attempted to sing and play together. Back then I had the song down (or so I thought) could play it backwards and forward and with my eyes closed, I was feeling great! I felt I was finally ready to add vocals, I got this no problem.. and the minute I tried to sing along, my brain locked up and you would have thought I’d never touched a guitar before in my life. Instantly humbled.

I will keep practicing, as I am seeing improvement, however, I do think this particular situation isn’t simply not having the pattern committed, but that the changes in the pattern don’t really sync up with the melody… Yes the chord change itself syncs, but those quick 16ths strums don’t go along with anything going on in the melody, and my brain just want consistency.

I also find I have the same sort of problem when I am playing Kodachrome, when the song goes to the little run along the G, I can play the run, but singing and playing it even after thousands of times, I still find that my vocals drop or I flub the run more often than not.

I will keep practicing the pattern, perhaps I am overthinking it, and that is all it is.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by  speckpgh.

[Carol-3M-Stillhand]

Hi again @speckpgh

I went back to your original question post and also took a listen to the song on YouTube… I believe you are having problems with singing and playing only when you try to play the sus chords? These are usually ornamental and quite pretty, and frequently occur as hammer-ons or pull offs which can be on the “off beat”. I’ve tried playing the sus ornaments as actual separate notes while I am learning the timing- that might help?

And again, write down every beat of the song on paper- not just the one two threes & fours (quarter notes), but also write down every “and” (eighth notes) and even the “e,&,a’s” (16th notes) and of course all of the rests. Then at a very slow tempo, count out the song out loud. Play it on YouTube at 0.25 speed and just count out loud as you listen to them do the song. When you know your rhythm on your paper notes is correct, then write every syllable of lyric below the exact beat where it occurs. Once you have that, then try singing/playing together, but at a very very slow tempo. It just has to click in a few times to “get it” then you can start increasing the speed. You might just have to do this (every beat thing) for the sections of the song where all the sus ornaments occur, but it might help?

I also found a section of the music/strumming pattern for the chorus that might help. (Attached)

Good luck with the song, and I hope you will post a video of you playing it on the forums!!! C

• This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by  Carol-3M-Stillhand.

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[speckpgh]

Thank you again Carol, I will look into this. It’s not just the Sus’s or the timing, as long as I’m not singing, I’m okay on the timing and the SUS’s… but the minute I sing, that alternate strumming pattern over the D, along with SUS’s just cause me to just not keep it all straight.

[albert_d]

Or you can just pay and sing it as it feels. Unless I’m having to play with other instrumentation, that’s what I do. You question is a great technique exercise but reality is that the eastern world… it is exploding, violence flaring and bullets loading so sing that message out there. (Oops got to thinking about Ukraine not TAC. Sorry @speckpgh) what a great song…

[speckpgh]

Yea, I can play it without dealing with the D strum change or augmentations and sing along fine and it sounds fine, but I like the effect of that in the song and am PUSHING myself to learn it.

Yes it is a great song, and I am enjoying it, but to be honest, the main reason I want to learn it is to sort of point out, this song came out in 1965, folks need to calm down with everything is an “existential threat” craziness that seems to be thrown around about just about everything these days.

World’s always been and always will be a mess, but yet we still muddle along. It’ll be okay folks, relax.

[guitarjunkiesteve]

When observing a lot of live performers, I’ve noticed many don’t play and sing at the same time, or as noted by others the strumming or even what they play may change when they sing. If they played both parts in the studio, they probably recorded separate tracks. I am extra amazed by live performers I see who can do both simultaneously. For what it’s worth, here’s something I was taught. Not saying I can execute it though! 😉 I was told to learn the singing and playing separately before combining them. When you have the playing of it nailed, (which it sounds like you do) before you add singing, play the song and have a conversation with someone. Don’t try and sing until you can play the song ‘perfectly’ while having that conversation. If you can do that, you should be able to add the singing no problem.

[John_Bolling_Hall]

I read somewhere that you have to be able to do either the strum or the vocals without thinking about it, as you can’t think of both simultaneously. I have found this to be accurate for me, so I typically practice the strum ad nauseum until it becomes mostly muscle memory. I’m not an expert by any means, but this works for me.

[That_Guy]

It just takes time and practice. When I started I couldn’t even do simple boom chucka rhythm while singing simple lyrics. You just have to play the song so many millions of times that your hand can mindlessly go on auto pilot. You have to know the lyrics so well that you can hear the entire song in your head from start to finish while practicing. At first it seems impossible but once your brain builds the new connections it isn’t any harder than playing without singing. Eventually you forget it was ever “impossible”. We all look for the secret tip to cure all but the answer is just more time and practice even if that means you wont be good at it for months or longer

[the-old-coach]

I had a nice reply- but went to edit it…. and POOF…. gone.

Here’s my “entry” into this post. I’m pretty sure I am well-behind you (all) in the guitar-learning world, so there’s that. So, take my opinions with that in mind.

My suggestion is not from guitar, but from coaching. But maybe some of the same things apply.

Individually—

You know the chords and transitions by heart.

You know the lyrics by heart.

You know the strumming patterns by heart.

We used to pound individual skills into our players’ heads…. for months…. until they had each skill built into their brain- to the point where it was almost automatic.

After all that work learning each skill– by heart– “inside”- (like your skills)- OUR coaching-part was to then tell them to forget all about all of that come game-time—- and JUST GO PLAY. To deliberately put all of these mechanical skills out of their minds, and just “let the whole thing happen”.

I (used to) know quite a bit about that coaching-stuff, but now, (with my guitar-level on full display, I’ll ask)- do you (all) think that something like that work in guitar? Can you/we/I somehow turn our mechanical brain off, and then maybe just take off and play intuitively?

Forget about exactly what chord, and what lyric, and what kind of strum at that exact moment—- and just sort-of let yourself “get lost in the music”, and GO PLAY!

Don’t be afraid to say my thoughts here are all wet. Because I want to figure this out also! I struggle with the same issue.