N-lightMike
Forum Replies Created
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Ok, Mark, @the-old-coach ;
I re-read your comment trying to figure out what it is you are not understanding. You say the notes are the same? Or, you can play either with either. I’m assuming you are saying you can play either chord with either scale shape?
Ok, let’s compare C major and A major. The C major is C, E, G. The A major is A, C#, E. So you can not play the A major chord using a C major scale, you don’t have the C#.
If you take the C note on the 3rd fret of the A string, or 5th string, and move it down 9 frets to the 12th fret. Now, if you play the same scale pattern that surrounds that C note on the 3rd fret, you will have an A major scale with an F#, C#, G#. And the A major chord will be the same shape as the C major open chord.
So no matter where you move the note your ring finger is holding when playing a C major open chord, you will have a major chord with that note as it’s root. And if you play the scale that is the same relative to that note position, you will have the correct scale for that root note.
I’ve tried to understand your confusion and I’ve tried to answer. I’ve spent a lot of time. If I still haven’t gotten it, you’ll have to refine your question.
MG 😀
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hey Mark @the-old-coach ;
As I was trying to read my comment above, I realized that it is more natural to see the order of the strings the other way like this:
1: O, 1, 3
2: O, 1, 3
3: O, 2
4: O, 2, 3
5: O, 2, 3
6: O, 1, 3I’m really sorry. My big long comment that I spent so much time on is almost useless as even I get confused trying to read it. I’ll try to edit it.
I’m kinda surprised, but I successfully edited the above comment without losing it.
MG 😀
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Ok, so this can be hard to “see” before you have “all” the knowledge. So the question is, do you know all 5 shapes of the C major/A minor scale up and down the neck? If not, then you just have to accept what you are told and tell your mind to shut up when it wants to ask a question. Sorry, but that’s part of the problem with the way music is taught. I’ve been making videos on YouTube attempting to fill in the blanks as I go along, but it’s not easy.
So, let’s start with the “C” shape scale. Why is it a “C” shape? The key of C uses only natural notes, so the open position scale would be as follows:
Key: 1st number is the string: O is Open, other numbers are frets.
1: O, 1, 3
2: O, 1, 3
3: O, 2
4: O, 2, 3
5: O, 2, 3
6: O, 1, 3Now the open C chord is 5: 3; 4: 2; 3: O; 2: 1; 1: O
Move that shape down 2 frets and you have a D major chord. Using those notes as your anchor points, play the same scale and you will magically have the D major scale with an F# and a C#.
1: 2, 3, 5
2: 2, 3, 5
3: 2, 4
4: 2, 4, 5
5: 2, 4, 5
6: 2, 3, 5Now the closed D chord is 5: 5; 4: 4; 3: 2; 2: 3; 1: 2
However, if you map out the G chord you have 6: 3; 5: 2; 4: O; 3: O; 2: O; 1: 3 (Yes, you can make 2: 3, but I play the 3 finger G chord. It doesn’t matter, either shape will work.)
Now, if you move that shape down 2 frets and use those notes as your anchor points, you will not end up with the G major scale, having just and F#, but you will end up with the D major chord having 2 sharps, F# and C#. And the chord will be the A major chord, the 5 chord of the key of D, just like G is the 5 chord of the key of C.
Now, move up to the 8th fret of the 6th string and make an open G major chord shape (again, it doesn’t matter which version of the open G you use).
6: 8; 5: 7; 4: 5; 3: 5; 2: 5; 1: 8 What are these notes? What chord do you have?
C, E, G, C, E, C This is a C major chord. Now, what shape follows this chord? Look at the key of G following the open G chord. This is going to have a note that is one fret behind Open, so we might move down to the 12th fret so we can “see” this more clearly.
The G chord is: 6: 15; 5: 14; 4: 12; 3: 12; 2: 12; 1: 15
The scale of the key of G is:
1: 12, 14, 15
2: 12, 13, 15
3: 11, 12, 14
4: 12, 14
5: 12, 14, 15
6: 12, 14, 15The scale of the key of C follows this pattern but is 7 frets toward the headstock. (This is a perfect 5th. G is the 5th of C, which means if you go UP from C you will go up 7 half steps, or 7 frets. Or, you say that C it the perfect 4th of G, which means if you go UP from G to C you have 5 half steps, or 5 frets. So to go DOWN, you must use the compliment, the perfect 5th which is 7 frets.) So, the scale is:
1: 5, 7, 8
2: 5, 6, 8
3: 4, 5, 7
4: 5, 7
5: 5, 7, 8
6: 5, 7, 8You won’t be able to understand just by reading this and “thinking” about it. Now, I have drawn up charts showing this. If I shared a chart with you, then you could “see” this. However, you wouldn’t “understand” it like you will if you pick up your guitar and actually fret these scales and chords. The other thing you can do is make your own charts. Then you will “see” it.
Well, I guess I can’t help myself. Here is the diagram showing the C major chord in the CAGED chord shapes within the associated scale pattern. One file is a pdf and the other is jpg. I have never seen any other attempts to show these as they all over lap. But if you look at this chart carefully, you will be able to “see” the CAGED chords and the scale patterns.
I hope this helps.
MG 😀
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@RC60 ;
You might send a message to support. It sounds like an issue with their server since you are able to get other videos without this happening.
But I have not used the FW videos in a while. Maybe, I should try one today and I’ll get back with you.
MG 😀
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Ok, let me try this again, Mark @the-old-coach .
If you got the first part, finding a note that fits and getting the key, then you have it. All you have to do is take those same notes and play them starting on the 6th degree, the minor root, and see if that “feels” better than starting on the major root.
Anyway, understanding isn’t highest priority. Just understand enough to know how to play the scales or chords and make the music you want. 😎
MG 😀
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I would like to clear one thing up, @Kitman , @Cadgirl and @stevieblues , A, B, C, D, E, F, and G is not the musical alphabet. It is only the alphabet of the key of C. We don’t use any other letters, it’s true. But we do have 5 other notes. The names of those notes are determined by the context of the key. And those notes fall in between the notes that have a space.
It makes everything much easier when you see this. The musical alphabet is:
A, A#/Bb, B, C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, F, F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab. The five extra notes are called “enharmonic” notes since they have 2 names. The reason we have 12 notes is because the spaces between the 7 notes of the major scale, 8 notes with the octave, are not evenly spaced. So, we put a note in between the notes that are not “next” to one another. Now we have an even spacing and we can transcribe. (True, this is a simplification. But it makes things clearer to recognize this from the beginning.)
Don’t let this stuff confuse you. Just allow it into your head, then let it percolate. It’ll be coffee in it’s own time. 😎
MG 😀
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Hey @the-old-coach ;
I didn’t really carefully read everything in you original post. I didn’t even look at anyone else’s comments. Why? Because I refuse to listen to the confusing crap that music educators in this country try to feed us. And by “music educators”, I’m talking the academics in the colleges and universities. Tony is a victim of this garbage just like the rest of us.
Now, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MINOR KEY. PERIOD.
Alright, so, there is a minor scale, or minor mode, which ever word you choose to use. Just replace the work “key” with scale or mode.
Now, how does this help you and the confusion you are having, Mark? Simple, a key is a specific collection of 7 notes. It doesn’t matter which note you start with and use as your tonal center or “home base”. What that means is the all the modes, or scales, use the same 7 notes and the same 7 chords. (I can almost here the AH-HA! in you head.)
Now, don’t get confused about the major scale, it is not the key either. The key is the 7 notes, period. The 7 notes gives you 7 chords. All the scales, including the major and minor use these same 7 notes and 7 chords. (I know, I’m repeating myself.) So the process is the same. You find the notes that work with the song and you verify by playing the scale, by which we really mean, the 7 notes. Once you have the “key”, that is the 7 notes that fit, you can start trying to identify which of the notes are being repeated most often.
But even if you can’t, all you have to do is play the scale starting on the minor root and see if that “feels” right. If not, play the scale starting on the major root and see if that feels right.
Let me repeat myself: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MINOR KEY. This causes a great amount of confusion. If anyone cares, I can prove that using harmonics, or math or physics. It’s reality, not opinion. The major scale root is the fundamental note of the 7 notes. That’s why it was appropriate to name the key after the major scale root. However, the major scale is a mode, or scale. A scale determines what note is the root. The key does not. The name denotes the fundamental note, and that’s why the major scale sounds the most resolved. But it’s not telling you to use that root. Any of the notes can be a root for your songs or scales.
Now that I have that out of the way, ask any questions you still have or new questions that this raises.
MG 😀
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Hey @stevieblues , I feel your pain and I think you have the right solution to rest and come back tomorrow.
But, I’d like to add one other thing if you are willing to hear it. This information isn’t for memorizing. This isn’t academic information. This information is long term, muscle memory info. Take it slow and have fun… and do it regularly. Just like guitar in general, it’s going to take a long time, but you can have fun in the meantime. And just like guitar, some of the info can be applied right away in you “fun” sessions.
Over time, you won’t need to “remember” this stuff, it will just get into your fingers and you’ll just use it to have fun and make beautiful noise.
MG 😀
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Hey @Marty69 , the important thing is you are taking care of yourself so you can play for many years to come.
In the meantime, there are many ways to stay connected to your guitar journey. One obvious one is to spend time looking closer at music theory. Another one is to watch videos on guitar technique that might inspire you. And of course, there’s the straight forward task of listening to music, lots of music, and really pay attention to hear things that can apply to your own playing. You can read books and watch documentaries about musicians and bands. And I’m sure there are more things that I haven’t thought of.
Get well soon, my friend.
MG 😀
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Thank you for replying to my comment, @jumpinjeff .
I get it that these terms are misused by everyone from the academics on down. I am not arguing a losing case; I’m arguing a lost case, past tense.
But I believe that this misunderstanding of the word “keys” is the crux of the problem of confusion. If Am is a key, then there are like, what?… 24 keys?… 30 keys?… well, or maybe 84 keys?… but wait, couldn’t there be 105 keys?
Now, that’s simply too much information to process. And when you have people as well known as Victor Wooten saying that there are 30 keys, and he hadn’t been sure until this other person “explained” it. I mean, come on. Do you practice all the keys? How can you if you don’t even know what a key is?
But, if there are only 12 notes, which lead to 12 keys, and each key has only 7 unique notes and 7 chords, now maybe I can handle that.
But isn’t that why it’s a “key”, it’s like unlocking a door? The key unlocks all the possibilities of this set of 7 notes. All I have to know is that this song uses the “key” of G, and I know that the notes are A, B, C, D, E, F#, and G. Now, I can figure everything out from there.
There’s a different mode, or scale, for each note. What ever note I start on, it’s repeat at the end. Everything is always based on octaves. But the notes are the same. And the chords are the same. That’s the “key”. Now, what’s the feel? Ahhhh, that’s where the magic of music comes to play. Try it. (I know you have, many times. I’m just talking theoretically.) Play those 7 notes, but keep coming back to F# and see how it feels. Make your self stop on that F#; it won’t be easy. And don’t even think about stopping on that G, just move on past, force yourself, then when you’ve just flown right past that F# and your all the way down to the E before you can stop yourself, make yourself come back to that F#, right there. Don’t stop the solo, don’t. But before you move on, let that note ring with all it’s tension just screaming to drop that on half step, that one fret, ohhhh pllllllllleeeaaassseee. Don’t you dare. In fact, when you continue, jump right on over that G and hit the A. Go ahead.
All you have to do is really explore one single key, and understand WHAT a key is, and the door to music is opened. Now, you know what to do. And you have many flavors. Not just 12 either. There are scales that aren’t found in the 12 keys.
But I would never have found this freedom if I hadn’t found the “key”. So I’m trying to share it.
Go ahead. Ask me WHY is it called the key of C if the major scale is just a mode. And WHY is the minor scale NOT a key. The simple answer is octaves and harmonics. Those notes weren’t picked at random. They can be derived empirically. And C is the fundamental of the natural notes.
And the relationships are why you get a different feel when you start and end on different notes. 🤔
“Well, if those are the reasons, then let’s explore those things.” Bingo! 😎
(The problem with us adults is we want to “understand” things. It’s so much easier with kids, cause they just play and explore and have fun… and don’t care what the explanation is. 😏 )
MG 😀
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The minor scale formula is the same as the major scale formula, it simply starts at a different degree giving you a different sequence. Yes, it gives a very different feel, but it’s the same pattern. There are 2 doubles and 3 doubles separated by 2 singles no matter where you start. Harmonic minor is a different pattern. It is 1 double, 2 doubles, and a triple separated by 3 singles.
Major: (2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1) 2, 2, 1, 2, 2
Minor: 2, 2, 1, 2, 2 (2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2)That is the pattern repeated twice. Both the major scale and the minor scale sequences are in parentheses. Now notice the harmonic minor.
Harmonic Minor: 2,1, 2, 2, 1, 3, 1
This is not merely a different sequence, it is altogether a different pattern.
MG 😀
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Hey @jumpinjeff , if you replaced the word “key” for the word scale or mode, it would be 100% correct. But, there’s no such thing as relative and parallel keys. Those would be modes, which can be called scales.
A key is the specific 7 notes that lead to 7 specific chords that all the scales, or modes, use. Of course, those would be relative modes. The parallel modes would come from different keys, and therefore use a different set of 7 notes and these would generate a different set of chords.
It seems the entire music world is now misusing this word, key. I won’t be able to stop that. But it causes an awful lot of confusion, so I’m trying to straighten out the use of this word where I can.
MG 😀
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Keys are not major or minor. Chords are major or minor. We can even refer to scales (modes) as major or minor, but that is due the chords that are found in the scale. Keys are not since they are simply a collection of 7 notes and do not determine what note we use as a root. See my comment below.
MG 😀
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I would be thrilled, @Moonhare , if you were to get some benefit from this. Also, check out the other post:
https://tonypolecastro.com/family-forums/topic/easy-way-to-remember-5-patterns-from-fw/
If any of this helps, awesome. If not, well, not a big deal. None of this is necessary. Your ears will always be a better guide in music than your brain, Darren.
MG 😀
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I am really happy this is working for you @Carnelia . I hadn’t thought of things in the way of learning or memory type. That’s an interesting idea. I just know that this fretboard “math” has helped me like no other technique I’ve tried.
Thank you for letting me know it’s working for you. I have started figuring out the “math” as I play scales that I have known for a long time. Yet, I find that I really understand them like I never have before when I “do the math”. I really don’t understand, I just know it’s working for me.
Here is another post I made covering the same concept in a little bit different way:
https://tonypolecastro.com/family-forums/topic/fw-2-across-the-strings/
I hope this helps.
MG 😀