Fretboard Wizard, CAGED, lesson E shape: Regarding minors

[Bill_Brown]

Hi @gotwoodncgmail-com

Without looking at the particular lesson you’re referring to, just know this: The interval of the 3rd is what makes a chord major or minor. In other words, the distance (or interval) from the root to the 3rd is what makes a major or minor chord. So if the chord has a major 3rd (3), it’s a major chord. Conversely, if the chord has a minor 3rd (b3 or flat 3), then it’s a minor chord. OK, how do we know the difference between a major and minor 3rd? The answer is the distance from the root. The distance (or interval) from a root to a major 3rd is 2 whole steps (or 4 frets), the distance to a minor 3rd from the root is 1 and 1/2 steps (or 3 frets) – a difference of 1/2 step (or 1 fret).

For example, let’s start with an A major chord with the notes A as the root, C# as the 3rd, and E as the 5th, that we derived from the chord matrix. Now when we fret the open A major chord (X02220), we’re playing the open A string (root), then fretting the D string 2nd fret (E note/5th), the G string 2nd fret (A note/also a root), and the B string 2nd fret (C# note/3rd) and playing the open hiE string (E note/also a 5th). When we fret the open A minor chord, everything is fretted the same EXCEPT the B string. We are now fretting the B string 1st fret (C note/b3rd or flat 3rd). So we have lowered the major 3rd down (in tone) by a 1/2 step (or 1 fret) and created a minor 3rd, making it an A minor chord (X02210).

You will find the same thing with the E major chord (and every chord). From the chord matrix, the notes are E=root, G#=3rd, and B=5th. The fretting will be 022100 where the G string 1st fret (G# note) is the major 3rd. If we lower the G# note by 1/2 step (or 1 fret) to a G note, we’ve created the E minor chord (022000). If you lower the 3rd of any major chord by a 1/2 step (or 1 fret), you’ll create a minor chord.

I hope this is helpful.

• This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Bill_Brown.

[jumpinjeff]

I am trying to figure out the actual question…..the first answer I come up with to, “how do you know?” is, you get to decide which, but that is not helpful. Are you specifically comparing the “shapes” of A and E? The minor always happens by flatting the major 3rd making it minor but that has many ways in which it can be accomplished and I am suspecting this is the subject question…why are E and A shapes themselves different when the third is flatted?

[Marc_Raleigh_NC]

I appreciate the responses, likely you would have to see the video section I mentioned, but stated another way:

Tony did the E-shape, and made A Chord an A minor by lifting the Middle finger off the G string.

Out of all the fingers fretting the chord, I did not follow how I would know the “middle finger was on the, 1/3” I needed to move.

The C#, sharp is 3, (out of 1,3,5), but how would I know without looking it up or making a matrix, and how would I know on the fretboard that Middle finger is that C# position?

(Is this all related to the number of frets from that rooted first position, and does not matter what the other strings are, but just matters the distance, number of steps away from that root note on root string?)

I’m just confirming how I would know which finger to use, per above extrapolation. I may have answered it above in the fret count aspect and the string does not matter, unless two fingers happen to be in the same fret, but different strings.

For instance out of the musical alphabet, A BC D EF G A, (WWHWWWH) The C# sharp, position is middle 1/3 of matrix column, AC#,E, so counting A, to C# in W or H steps is 4 frets away, or 2 whole steps, and E is 1.5 steps away, and that is the definition of major.

I understand moving the one step to make the major a minor.

Thank you for the efforts to explain, and hopefully this clarifies the matter a little better.

[Marc_Raleigh_NC]

I guess the answer is in this statement: In the E shape, the G string is always the third.

I don’t understand why that is so.

[jumpinjeff]

yes you have it. When talking about the shape, The E shape will always become minor by lifting that finger….here is the caveat….when the bar is engaged. If you are making an A chord with the E shape the bar must cover the G string on the fifth fret. Or if you are not playing it as a bar you will need to slide your index to the fifth fret otherwise when you lift the index you will get a Open G note not the desired C# for the major or C for the minor (with the index placed respectively). It is this way because the intervals of the notes don’t change, the note themselves change but their space between them does not.

The thing that took me a while was figuring out how chords are not always built top to bottom and sometimes they run inside out aka inversions. I found three ways people get it, either memorize, have time in the saddle or have a gifted ear. I am a bad memorizer, I have no musical gift, I went the time in the saddle route. Determination plus the years of clear instruction always heading me off into the correct direction until it made sense. Comprehension did not come at once, rather it came in a series of moments of greater understanding starting slowly building to a cascade. If you can do either of the other two do that because darn, it took me longer than I thought: good thing I learned how to have a good time on the way!

[Marc_Raleigh_NC]

Thank you, I believe it will be time in the saddle for me. I am doing this because it it a challenge, and I have to remind myself of that. “Progress over perfection” mantra. Your comments and ones below are helpful context on multiple levels. Thanks again!

[albert_d]

Just for fun I’d like to jump I’m here. First @jumpinjeff and @Bill_Brown are two of my favorite theory forum contributors so I always think through what they say. Second. I’ve been focusing on improving my CAGED system conceptual understanding and your question has awakened me to another concept. In standard tuning, the open strings are tuned a fifth apart except for the G to B strings which are a fourth apart. So in an E shaped chord in standard tuning the notes (root in on the low E) will always be R,5,R,3,5,R. So you are correct that the G string will always be the third and by lifting up the middle finger you will have a flatted 3rd.

Also I am a big fan of memorizing key board. It’s not as bad a process as they say even for my old brain.

[Marc_Raleigh_NC]

Much appreciated, it tell me that it IS complex and that I am on the edge of another AH-HA break through. I’ve been at this since April, 2026; so still drinking water from a firehose. It is conceptually coming together, but I’ve gone very wide without going deep, in that I don’t have much committed to memory or muscle memory yet. I’m averaging 1+ hour per day and sometimes 3-4 hours working on the academic part for Fretboard Wizard. I will complete it this week and then get back to more hands on the guitar aspect to reinforce the concepts. I did make summary notes in some of the CAGED sections as some people had the same questions I did/do.

[jorgemac]

My learning curve simply exploded upwards once. I learned the fret board note positions. If you know what notes make up each major and minor chord you can find that chord in many different places. In the first 5 frets there are 5 different Ways to make a C chord. It all falls into place when you know what notes make up chords and can find their locations on the fret board.

There are 3 C notes, 4 G notes and 4 E notes that you can combine to make up 5 different C chord patterns. I use 4 different D chord shapes in the same 5 frets. There is always something new I learn every time I pick up my guitar. It all comes back to being able to find all of the different

[jorgemac]

My learning curve simply exploded upwards once I learned the fret board note positions. If you know what notes make up each major and minor chord you can find that chord in many different places. In the first 5 frets there are 5 different Ways to make a C chord. It all falls into place when you know what notes make up chords and can find their locations on the fret board.

There are 3 C notes, 4 G notes and 4 E notes that you can combine to make up 5 different C chord patterns. in the first 5 frets. I use 4 different D chord shapes in the same 5 frets. There is always something new I learn every time I pick up my guitar. It all comes back to being able to find all of the different note positions.

Each of the 6 strings on a guitar contain all of the available 12 notes that we use to make up music.

The top and bottom string have notes in the same fret position so you only have to work on knowing where the notes are located on on the other 4 strings.

10 minutes a day learning where the notes are will change your playing dramatically if you know how and what notes are in each of the 7 major chords.

[Marc_Raleigh_NC]

This is good for my learning curve context. I appreciate the remarks.

Thank you!