Minor keys

[Cadgirl]

@the-old-coach , Believe me you aren’t the only one that gets stumped on the Major and Minor scale. The model formula of Major uses the Key of C which is CDEFGABC The model formula for minor uses the Key of A – ABCDEFGA.

Go back to Day 1 ‘Learn the Chord Matrix’. Scroll down and look at the ‘Key Points’. minor key uses m, dim, M, m, m, M, M. Now go back and look at Friday Challenge (Minor Chords in the Key of Dm) and see how it works. Even thou it’s a minor key all the chords are Major because it’s following the universal rule of minor key which is m dim M m m M M.

Don’t feel bad I had to take a break myself. I was started to confuse myself. Take notes, stop and try to compare to the daily challenges and it will eventually make sense. Actually I don’t even know if I answered your question?? All I know is in my 68 years of life, this is something I have never had to think about. So it’s hard and confusing. You’ll get there. Hopefully someone else can do better than I. 😉

[GerryB56]

You have likely discovered it by now, OldCoach, but if not, refer to p. 8 of the new FBW reference guide, that gives you the minor scale formula – W H W W H W W. The process from there is the same as for a major scale, with the chords following the minor scale pattern as Cadgirl describes. Forgive me if I’m pointing out something obvious to you already. By the way, I am absolutely loving Tony’s FBW, so glad I overcame my hesitation to buy it. I never had the original version, so can’t compare them, but I gather he has made some major improvements in FBW 2.0

[Cadgirl]

@GerryB56 : thanks, I forgot about the reference guide.

[N-lightMike]

The minor scale formula is the same as the major scale formula, it simply starts at a different degree giving you a different sequence. Yes, it gives a very different feel, but it’s the same pattern. There are 2 doubles and 3 doubles separated by 2 singles no matter where you start. Harmonic minor is a different pattern. It is 1 double, 2 doubles, and a triple separated by 3 singles.

Major: (2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1) 2, 2, 1, 2, 2
Minor: 2, 2, 1, 2, 2 (2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2)

That is the pattern repeated twice. Both the major scale and the minor scale sequences are in parentheses. Now notice the harmonic minor.

Harmonic Minor: 2,1, 2, 2, 1, 3, 1

This is not merely a different sequence, it is altogether a different pattern.

MG 😀

[Mrfredsporty]

I just learned something that is another small tool in the tool box . I’m sure you are way ahead of me, but here goes anyway.the 6th note of the major scale is the name of the relative minor scale . Banda bing!

[jumpinjeff]

@the-old-coach Duudddddde You toaaatallllyy Have this. The process is the same. It is just a different flavor. The chords same: big differences between Major and its relative Minor key is the order and the flavor. Where you start and where you end is what determines your flavor. Happy start, happy end, likely the Major key, sad start, sad end likely the relative minor key. Lets talk about relative keys vs parallel keys. Understanding this may help you with the key selection based on the single note method. Parallel keys and Relative keys. Relative keys have the same notes ordered differently Parallel key has the same start note but notes after that are different. C majors relative minor is Aminor. You could play the A note the whole way and it will sound good especially if the song starts with that A minor chord. You could also play the C note and it would sound good. The way to determine if it is A minor or C major is how it is starting and ending and the feel. So now you are thinking If A note works the whole way how do I know it is not key of A….If you play the A major chord to start or end or pretty much anywhere it will be out of place. Or if it is in place at the start or finish you have determined the Key to be A major. If you are sure the A note is “the” note try playing the notes in a major scale pattern, it will only take a few to determine yea or nea and if it sounds wonky go back to the minor pattern and it should work. If neither work you may have to listen and pick another note that sounds all the way though the song like it fits.

[N-lightMike]

Hey @jumpinjeff , if you replaced the word “key” for the word scale or mode, it would be 100% correct. But, there’s no such thing as relative and parallel keys. Those would be modes, which can be called scales.

A key is the specific 7 notes that lead to 7 specific chords that all the scales, or modes, use. Of course, those would be relative modes. The parallel modes would come from different keys, and therefore use a different set of 7 notes and these would generate a different set of chords.

It seems the entire music world is now misusing this word, key. I won’t be able to stop that. But it causes an awful lot of confusion, so I’m trying to straighten out the use of this word where I can.

MG 😀

[jumpinjeff]

I totally get what you are saying @N-lightMike .Thank you for trying to keep it clear and direct. I can sure use all the help I can get right? I am trying to use the word key in direct relationship to a song, ever song has a key so that everyone can play the some chords and scales as they relate to the agreed upon key. Check me on that…I know you have been deep diving into the world of word connecting principles. I was avoiding modes although I find them easy to understand (now) I spent a good deal of time figuring them out. The reason the key of a song is important to @the-old-coach ‘s situation is he is listening to song where the key has been established and he is trying to decode and find the “Key”. I get that if the key is A minor you could also call it A Aeolian to identify it by the mode. Check me on that too : ) In my mind for better of for worse I always think of the Ionian Major mode as the place I relate to something and play with it from there but I have to know the key in order to determine where to begin. I like a seamless shift between major and minor both relatives and when I can bend it to the parallels all the better. But that does not address The old Coach’s question and I have wandered onto a parallel path.

[N-lightMike]

Thank you for replying to my comment, @jumpinjeff .

I get it that these terms are misused by everyone from the academics on down. I am not arguing a losing case; I’m arguing a lost case, past tense.

But I believe that this misunderstanding of the word “keys” is the crux of the problem of confusion. If Am is a key, then there are like, what?… 24 keys?… 30 keys?… well, or maybe 84 keys?… but wait, couldn’t there be 105 keys?

Now, that’s simply too much information to process. And when you have people as well known as Victor Wooten saying that there are 30 keys, and he hadn’t been sure until this other person “explained” it. I mean, come on. Do you practice all the keys? How can you if you don’t even know what a key is?

But, if there are only 12 notes, which lead to 12 keys, and each key has only 7 unique notes and 7 chords, now maybe I can handle that.

But isn’t that why it’s a “key”, it’s like unlocking a door? The key unlocks all the possibilities of this set of 7 notes. All I have to know is that this song uses the “key” of G, and I know that the notes are A, B, C, D, E, F#, and G. Now, I can figure everything out from there.

There’s a different mode, or scale, for each note. What ever note I start on, it’s repeat at the end. Everything is always based on octaves. But the notes are the same. And the chords are the same. That’s the “key”. Now, what’s the feel? Ahhhh, that’s where the magic of music comes to play. Try it. (I know you have, many times. I’m just talking theoretically.) Play those 7 notes, but keep coming back to F# and see how it feels. Make your self stop on that F#; it won’t be easy. And don’t even think about stopping on that G, just move on past, force yourself, then when you’ve just flown right past that F# and your all the way down to the E before you can stop yourself, make yourself come back to that F#, right there. Don’t stop the solo, don’t. But before you move on, let that note ring with all it’s tension just screaming to drop that on half step, that one fret, ohhhh pllllllllleeeaaassseee. Don’t you dare. In fact, when you continue, jump right on over that G and hit the A. Go ahead.

All you have to do is really explore one single key, and understand WHAT a key is, and the door to music is opened. Now, you know what to do. And you have many flavors. Not just 12 either. There are scales that aren’t found in the 12 keys.

But I would never have found this freedom if I hadn’t found the “key”. So I’m trying to share it.

Go ahead. Ask me WHY is it called the key of C if the major scale is just a mode. And WHY is the minor scale NOT a key. The simple answer is octaves and harmonics. Those notes weren’t picked at random. They can be derived empirically. And C is the fundamental of the natural notes.

And the relationships are why you get a different feel when you start and end on different notes. 🤔

“Well, if those are the reasons, then let’s explore those things.” Bingo! 😎

(The problem with us adults is we want to “understand” things. It’s so much easier with kids, cause they just play and explore and have fun… and don’t care what the explanation is. 😏 )

MG 😀

[the-old-coach]

Mike and Jeff– You DO know I love both of you guys, right?

You BOTH have been a real inspiration to me – (and MANY others as well here in the Forum!)- always offering help, advice, encouragement, and a guiding, “shut-up-and-get-playing” nudge when I need it.

That’s why you two are among my “heroes” here in the TAC Forum.

It’s cool that you are discussing this deep stuff- and I’m trying hard as I can to figure out just what the hell you are talking about- (guess that shows where I’M at in my guitar journey)😋.

Anyway— keep goin’!! It’s WAAAYYYY above me– but I’ll catch on…….

theoldcoach

[the-old-coach]

Caddie, Gerry, Fred, and Jeff—

Thank you ALL for your replies- they have helped!

I’m taking my time with this particular issue- and your replies- sorting thru all the different suggestions and help- I want to get this RIGHT.😎

It’s not ***completely*** clear in my mind yet, though……

I have all the nuts-&-bolts-y stuff down- 1. the 5 patterns for finding chords on up the neck, 2. the identifying the (major- anyway)- Key by going up the low-E string- (I get it right **most** of the time on the first try)- and 3. the “recipes” for both the Major and Minor Keys, (and can chase those up the neck from any starting note). So far so good.

But, if I may, I still have questions about– determining the Key if it’s a MINOR-sounding song. Like my first post- I don’t even really know if I’m **asking** the right thing. I can go up & down the fretboard pretty easily with all the notes in the scale- (major and minor)—- ONCE I HAVE THE PLACE TO START.

I’m not clear on this whole “relative minor” thing- what it means, and how to use it. I know(?) the relative minor of C Major scale is A Minor scale. Does this mean that if I go up the Low-E string to find the key-note– Let’s say it turns out that it’s a “C”– (—BUT— the song sounds “sad” or “down” or “dark”)– does that mean that the key is/could be actually “A Minor”???? Is this what the whole “relative minor” is about??

Really sorry I’m having sooooo much trouble with this😜- and wonder if I’m the “only one” stuck on this point😳…..

I just want to know how to find/determine the- (minor)- key if the song is sad/ dark/ etc…

Major– no prob…… Minor– I’ve got some sort of mental block- or maybe I’m just not “there” yet.

Thanks again to all for your help…… I hope I’m asking things the “right way”……

theoldcoach

[Cadgirl]

@the-old-coach You’re no trouble at all. I think it’s a lot to digest. I’m going to guess I see where you might have an issue. Let’s pretend the song is in the key of C (which is Major), remember it still can have minor chords in it. The example Tony shows doesn’t show the 6th degree ‘A’ as a minor chord. But, if you look at the Major Key Chord Matrix per degree M m m M M m dim M. It tells you that the A chord will be minor. Pull up the diagram I sent. Does this make sense? I only can think I know what I’m talking about, there is no guarantee.

Key-of-C-matrix.jpg 28 KB Image File - Click to view

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[Bill_Brown]

Hi @the-old-coach , I have 1 tidbit to add, and it’s something that’s covered well in FW1, but not so much in FW2 (at least to my best recollection). This goes along with figuring out the key to a song by ear. Yes, you already know to use the loE string to find the lowest “note” that fits best with the song, but individual notes are neither major or minor, so how can you tell if the song is in a major or minor key? The answer to that was taught in FW1 (at least I remember it best from there) was to use a moveable major and minor scale pattern and play them (once you’ve decided on a key) while listening to the song. For example, let’s say we’ve decided a song is in the key of A (loE string 5th fret), but we’re not sure if it’s A major or A minor. In FW1, you were instructed to play the A major scale while listening to the song to see if the scale notes fit with the tune. If that didn’t quite sound right then you would play the A minor scale to see how those notes fit into the song – anyways, the moveable major and minor scale patterns are the tools used to determine by ear, if a key is major or minor.

[N-lightMike]

Keys are not major or minor. Chords are major or minor. We can even refer to scales (modes) as major or minor, but that is due the chords that are found in the scale. Keys are not since they are simply a collection of 7 notes and do not determine what note we use as a root. See my comment below.

MG 😀

[N-lightMike]

Hey @the-old-coach ;

I didn’t really carefully read everything in you original post. I didn’t even look at anyone else’s comments. Why? Because I refuse to listen to the confusing crap that music educators in this country try to feed us. And by “music educators”, I’m talking the academics in the colleges and universities. Tony is a victim of this garbage just like the rest of us.

Now, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MINOR KEY. PERIOD.

Alright, so, there is a minor scale, or minor mode, which ever word you choose to use. Just replace the work “key” with scale or mode.

Now, how does this help you and the confusion you are having, Mark? Simple, a key is a specific collection of 7 notes. It doesn’t matter which note you start with and use as your tonal center or “home base”. What that means is the all the modes, or scales, use the same 7 notes and the same 7 chords. (I can almost here the AH-HA! in you head.)

Now, don’t get confused about the major scale, it is not the key either. The key is the 7 notes, period. The 7 notes gives you 7 chords. All the scales, including the major and minor use these same 7 notes and 7 chords. (I know, I’m repeating myself.) So the process is the same. You find the notes that work with the song and you verify by playing the scale, by which we really mean, the 7 notes. Once you have the “key”, that is the 7 notes that fit, you can start trying to identify which of the notes are being repeated most often.

But even if you can’t, all you have to do is play the scale starting on the minor root and see if that “feels” right. If not, play the scale starting on the major root and see if that feels right.

Let me repeat myself: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MINOR KEY. This causes a great amount of confusion. If anyone cares, I can prove that using harmonics, or math or physics. It’s reality, not opinion. The major scale root is the fundamental note of the 7 notes. That’s why it was appropriate to name the key after the major scale root. However, the major scale is a mode, or scale. A scale determines what note is the root. The key does not. The name denotes the fundamental note, and that’s why the major scale sounds the most resolved. But it’s not telling you to use that root. Any of the notes can be a root for your songs or scales.

Now that I have that out of the way, ask any questions you still have or new questions that this raises.

MG 😀

[the-old-coach]

To all–

Again— THANK YOU for all your generous advice, help, hints, tips, and encouragement!

As I said earlier- I’m going slow on this. Thanks to you all- I think I’m starting get a handle on this part of it. More testing and repetition will help clarify things for sure.

We ALL see things better when others contribute.

Thanks again, all!

the old coach

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by  the-old-coach. Reason: had to cut out a goofy story once told to me

[N-lightMike]

Ok, let me try this again, Mark @the-old-coach .

If you got the first part, finding a note that fits and getting the key, then you have it. All you have to do is take those same notes and play them starting on the 6th degree, the minor root, and see if that “feels” better than starting on the major root.

Anyway, understanding isn’t highest priority. Just understand enough to know how to play the scales or chords and make the music you want. 😎

MG 😀

[the-old-coach]

Great stuff, right there……..